More to the Blues interview with Eric Clapton about the new CD/DVD "Sessions for Robert J"
Interview date: November 5, 2004
ERIC CLAPTON
I had a friend called Clive and we were, we were kind of soul brothers in terms of our mission towards finding great blues and stuff, and we, we got there by listening to rock and roll and White rock and roll and, and, you know, and Little Richard and Chuck Berry and, and Elvis and Jerry Lee Lewis and Buddy Holly, they were the big five for me. And then we started to research the roots of it.
And, uh, there was no kind of, there was no path, there was no path to travel on, it was really just going to, finding good jazz record stores that had a blues department and just going through and looking at albums to see what it kind of felt like. And, uh, and that way, we kind of, we discovered we went back through time. Going back through Big Bill Broonzy, back through Muddy Waters and, and, and there is kind of like a gap somewhere between the 20's and the 40's.
But there was that shift when people went up to Chicago. There's a whole area in the middle which is kind of a little week. But in the early days, there were so few but really, it, it got easier. The further back you went in a way, it kind of was like you were getting to the thing end of the wedge. So it was easy to know who really started all this. You know, we had Sun House and Charlie Patton, Blind Lemon Jefferson, Leroy Carr and Robert Johnson. And I've always enjoyed listening to Robert Johnson more than anybody else.
ERIC CLAPTON
Morning.
MALE
Morning.
ERIC CLAPTON
How are you?
MALE
Good how are you?
ERIC CLAPTON
Alright, alright. Is anybody else here?
Okay. Where's the...
One, two, one, two, three, four. One, two, one, two, three, four.
One more time, one more. Everyone okay? That's alright man, we'll get it, it gets better each time, you see. We'll go on, though, we'll move on and we'll come back to it.
MALE
Yeah. Wow. That was good. Yeah.
FUGEE
How old were you when you first heard about ?
ERIC CLAPTON
15. Very arrogant, kind of, uh, moody pseudo-intellectual.
FUGEE
Did that music appeal to you right away when you were 15?
ERIC CLAPTON
Oh yeah, but, I mean, it kind of went along with my image of myself too, because I, I saw myself as being cast from different material to everybody else. I mean, the fact that I'd found this one other guy who wanted to dress like I, I mean, we were into this whole look that was so I mean, every, everyone in England at that time was trying to be like a Beatle or something.
We just didn't march to the same drum. So, I think Robert was interesting to me because he came across as a kind of isolated guy. You know, it wasn't good time music and it was, you know, he was singing out of despair and loneliness and a lot of the time. I was a deliberate loner. So if I, I really, I really identified with Robert Johnson.
FUGEE
Did you know about his life, I mean, about...
ERIC CLAPTON
Well yes, because on the album. That first album that came out, The King Of The Delta Blues, there was everything that you can even read about him now. I mean, there wasn't any more to learn. Once you'd read those cover notes, you had it all, and it had, you know, several versions of his death on that album cover too, whether or not he was barking like a dog going crazy or died from poisoning or just disappeared, I mean, it was like I'm reading the script for a movie, the back of this album and he was the star. Do you need more of that? Can you put more, yeah, more high hat in that. More, more.
A one, two, one, two, three, four.
MALE
Alan thinks some stuff sounds better than the record. So what are we gonna do? Make a new record? Keep making ?
ERIC CLAPTON
Well, I think this is a DVD. And, and what we'll do is, we're talking to Horatio about coming, maybe to Dallas for the festival. Do a couple more things there, and cover what we didn't do. That's why we put Chicago. So, I'll maybe look at some other songs and he wants me to do a solo on, so we kind of cover everything.
MALE
Yeah.
ERIC CLAPTON
Do you think there's anything we need to go at again?
MALE
Well I, if you don't mind, I want you to hear from the first let's just .
ERIC CLAPTON
Okay, okay.
MALE
Hell Hound?
ERIC CLAPTON
How could any musician who was true to himself, keep his experience out of his music? I mean, it's impossible. And, and that's where all true great music is, is that you hear someone's life in what they play. So that's probably what it is about Robert that is so magnetic, is that whatever took place and it is all a bit of a mystery, um, it was large as anyone else's life ever, really.
And, and, and he, and he did manage to express it all, I don't, I, I heard that, also that when he was live, I heard rumors that he could be entertained and that he was an entertainer. That he would go off the beaten track play standards too, so it would be, I think it would be a foolish assumption to assume that he was just one kind of guy. Well done everybody, well done. A good start to the, um, to whatever it's gonna be.
FUGEE
There's this interpretation out there, or myth that he went to the crossroads somewhere and sold his soul to the devil. And the devil came and tuned his guitar and he became awfully good and returned there after.
ERIC CLAPTON
My, my interpretation is he's talking about trouble or he's talking about a woman. I mean, that song, that song, early this morning, you knocked upon and I said, hello Satan, it's, I believe it's time to go, I believe he's talking about his girlfriend to be honest with you. I, that's my way of, it's just simple, I don't, um, I don't really know that I cared to imagine what it would be like if it was really, like, voodoo.
Maybe there was, I think it was so much a part of their, their daily life, that kind of stuff, that you would, that you everyone dabbled in it. I'm sure he had a mojo and I'm sure he knew people that could work spells and et cetera, et cetera. But, um, whether or not he made a pact, um, I don't know. I don't I choose to think not. Because the thing that comes through about Robert's stuff, I mean, maybe this would be unaffected anyway, it was his innocence.
It doesn't sound to me like it, what he did was a calculated affair to be the best in the world. Do you know what I mean? That's what people said that, you know, he signed this deal so he could be the best guitar. Well it, that's not what comes across to me, 'cause he's not a showoff. None of his music is flashy or I mean, it, it's just perfect. I mean, it's often really understated. And that wouldn't, wouldn’t go along with someone who wanted to be recognized on a grand scale.
FUGEE
A more realistic interpretation was that, you know, he returned to his home town and that perhaps he practiced very, very hard and came back an extremely good musician.
ERIC CLAPTON
Yeah.
FUGEE
And I guess what, is that the term ?
ERIC CLAPTON
Yeah, wood shedding, wood shedding, yeah.
FUGEE
And what was it like for you? 'Cause I read, like, you ?
ERIC CLAPTON
Well, I did the same thing. And, um, I think it was just, there was just a, a level of commitment in that I wanted, I was suddenly moving, um, into um, an area where the musicians were a little older and a little bit more serious. I mean, I'd been with the Yard Birds and I was about 19, 18, 19 at that time. And we were having fun. We were making good music and we were having fun and these guys are serious musicians too.
But when I, when I left that band, I recognized that there was a level of expectation that I was stepping into, that I had better be ready for. Uh, and so, um, I had at my disposal, one of the biggest blues record collections in the world, I imagine, in John's house. And I would listen all day and play along with and, and imitate and learn and study. Half the day, every day, he would put on a record and play along with it. And, and that's, that was wood shedding and I probably did that for two years while I was there.
And there's a similarity in that to what Robert did. And, and I think it comes from, it may have come from the same place that I just wanted to be as good as I could be. But, but not, uh, to anybody else's standards, just mind.
One, two, one, two, three, four.
Yeah, let's have a little break, yeah. Yeah, okay. Two, three, four.
For me this is a luxury, a labor love, to do this. Because I, I can move to another genre of music quite easily or go back to rock and roll or play electric blues or even reggae and jazz to a certain extent. But Robert we have to think about. Robert, this was all he did. And so when he went into the studio to do those things, he was playing them every day, every night. I wonder actually 'cause some of the alternative takes are so different.
If he didn't have many different versions of each song and which one he decided to do on the day. So, I mean, it was, we were allowed a tiny little window into his world.
I can't even imagine what it was like to have been there in that day, and what that place was like, and what he was like, and who else was there. I mean, I think the fact that we went there was the best thing we could do to, to get in touch with it. But God, it's so far away.
John Mayall was aware that I, that Robert Johnson was my main man. I mean, from, from the day we met, well that's probably what we talked about. And, and it was his sort of instigation that made me do Rambling. We just went into the studio for a day, literally, and played the songs that we did onstage, with a couple of the, of songs that John had written specially for the occasion. But there was very little rehearsal. And, and when we got to the end of it he said, you, you ought to do Rambling.
And I said, well, I've never done it, you know, I can't, I knew the song from listening to it. But we did a version of that, and that was the first time I ever did a Robert John song.
FUGEE
Was that also the first time you ever sang and recorded your voice?
ERIC CLAPTON
No it wasn't, it was the first time I sang solo. I sang with, I sang with The Yardbirds, but I, and it was in, you know, background. I didn't really sing lead stuff too much.
FUGEE
How did you feel about doing lead stuff in the first place?
ERIC CLAPTON
I didn't think I was any I mean, I I still don't. I don't, I don't really think of myself as a singer, you know, and I've, I have to work really hard to pitch properly.
FUGEE
I read that when you recorded Rambling, like, you were, like, concerned about your voice?
ERIC CLAPTON
Yeah.
FUGEE
There was nobody else in the studio, and it was just an overdub, and you wanted to try it alone?
ERIC CLAPTON
I think that's right, yeah. I think they all had to go, and they had to turn all the lights out your usual stuff.
FUGEE
And I saw you at the Hollywood Bowl the other day, you were singing it in front of thousands people. Like, how does that happen? What's, what is that?
ERIC CLAPTON
Well, that's about a 30-year period of adjustment. I, it took a long time. And from John Mayall I went to Cream, and I went to Cream with, with the assumption that I was gonna be the lead singer. But when the, when, when, when the chips were down I wasn't a singer, really, I still wasn't a singer. It took me, about another four years to really commit to the idea that I had to start singing.
And that if I was gonna be free to be a musician I needed to started singing. But then it, funnily enough, in contradiction to all this, when I started playing the guitar in purely social occasions, like in a pub, like this, with an acoustic guitar, I would sing. And I didn't really have, I wasn't really self-conscious about it, because in, in pubs and places like that people ignore you anyway. After, you know, if you start to sing they'll listen for a minute, and then they're gonna go and carry on their conversation.
So you can get by doing that stuff in those kind of situations without being criticized, or noticed too much. It was actually easy. So in a way I had, I had already laid out my store from day one. I just, when I got into professional situations I would shrink from it, you know.
FUGEE
How technically proficient was Robert Johnson?
ERIC CLAPTON
When I first heard him, I, I think Keith Richards said this too, that we all thought there was, he was being accompanied by someone, it sounded like it. And it wasn't unusual in those days, I mean, you often had a piano player and a guitar player, or two guitar players. And it wasn't until later that I realized you could do it, what he does. But you have to really, I mean, I've had to, I've had to work really hard in the last few days, to try and do some of the things that I needed to do to play along.
And I, and, and, and my, my take on Robert Johnson so far is that it needs two people, to play what he plays and sing at the same time. And it, and, and, and on top of what I'm describing, he had a completely a freestyle approach to any kind of structure, too. So that, you know, if it was given that it was a 12-bar structure he was working in on some, you know on one verse, it would maybe, 13 or 14.
He would just extend parts or shorten them according to how he felt, or, you know, what he needed to do next. And that makes it really difficult to impersonate, 'cause if you're gonna emulate this stuff it's, you kind of reach a point where you think, well, shall I do an approximation? Or is it necessary to really sit down and completely copy it? And I think to do that would be a life's work. I mean, it seriously would be a life's work for any musician.
There is really one thing, the thing that he does is a, there's a, a style that he plays, where he, he plays in a sort of cross-tempo. And when he goes to the b-section, the second part of the song, given that it's a 12-bar, he plays something underneath his voice, which is sort of independent in time. And, and what it is, is say it's, say the song is (PLAYS GUITAR) b-section is now (PLAYS GUITAR) and over the top of that he sings a line in a different time (SINGING) (PLAYS GUITAR) I mean, to do those two things at the same time.
Until I and I still can't, I can't do it completely right, I can kind of get an approximation. But, I mean, it's almost one of those things where you listen to it, it just sounds so relaxed. And yet when you come to try it and do it, you find out how almost virtually impossible it is. And I've had to work on this every morning and every night for the last week, to try and just do one song like that. So that's pretty difficult.
FUGEE
What does it feel like to you when you're playing?
What does it feel like when you're, you know, when you're going off on a riff or something?
ERIC CLAPTON
Well, it's the closest thing to being truly in the moment I can experience really, I think. If I'm, if I'm just in a social situation, and we're, I mean, me alone, part of me is there, a good deal of it. You know, maybe 75% part of my brain is off somewhere, thinking about what I'm gonna do tomorrow, will, have I got everything I need to make the journey I'm gonna make, etcetera, etcetera. Did I do, did I forget something about what we were supposed to do yesterday.
I mean, but doing that kind of work, especially the stuff that we're doing, with just me and the acoustic, requires such concentration that I am, I think this is close as I get to being really in the moment. And then everything, time just sort of stands still, and at the same time seems to go by very quickly. It's all, it's all like, a kind of roller, it's like being in a, in an accident. It's just a blur. But I love it, you know, I love, I love that kind of, when it feels like it's really going well, and, and, and I'm just in tune and in harmony with time. It's a great, it's a great feeling.
FUGEE
You were talking a bit about, like, being in service, the other day?
ERIC CLAPTON
Hmm.
FUGEE
Like, 'cause I'd imagine, I mean, you've been quite successful, and you, you don't, it's not financially necessarily for you to keep playing and touring and stuff. And, what is it that drives you, at this point? To, to continue, and...
ERIC CLAPTON
The experience of making music, really, is the, is the, is the most, professionally, and even just, in an amateur way, too. The, the, the, the, the joy of making music is what I was put here for, I believe. And, and I kind of knew, I knew right away, once I'd started to kind of get it right, in the, in my teens. Once I started to experience the joy of getting a result from practice, the, this was my destiny, I suppose.
And, and I always, thank God, intuitively knew that music was the, the most important part of it. That it wasn't what I could get from music, it was what I could give to it. When I when you asked me that question, now what is it like? Well, I wish people could experience what it's like to be really focused on doing something musical, and, and have it work, and be in tune and harmony. And, and that, and that can only come, I believe, if I'm in service of if I'm serving music, rather than trying to manipulate it to my ends, you know.
